DANNY DE HEK Entrepreneur Decision Maker Connector Podcaster EducatorYou’re listening to Danny, on WHAT : DE HEK podcast. This is the place where I share my experience, knowledge and skills.

Transcribed by Otter

Danny de Hek 0:00
Andrew, how are you doing today?

Richard Andrew 0:02
I’m very well, Danny, WHAT : DE HEK are we doing.

Danny de Hek 0:05
That’s it WHAT : DE HEK Podcast, you’ve come along to a live one here. So we don’t tell anyone who you are what you do until later on. I have 12 questions and they’re the pack of 107.

Richard Andrew 0:15
Should I hide my face then?

Danny de Hek 0:18
Yeah, yeah. So they’ve been shuffled. I don’t even know what they are. But we did actually have a committee once and we come up with 107 meaningful questions to actually ask people. And technically, there shouldn’t be any better questions than this. But if there is, you don’t have to answer. It’s all impromptu. So start off with the first question.

Richard Andrew 0:37
Where’s the scoreboard?

Danny de Hek 0:39
Oh, well, that’s the customers below with the comments. So anyone that’s got the tomatoes. They can go they can put tomatoes and throw it at you. It should be fine.

Richard Andrew 0:49
Cool

Danny de Hek 0:49
Okay, let’s see how fashionable you are. Is anythink that you wish would come back into Fashion?

Richard Andrew 0:56
Is there anything that what would come back into Fashion?

Danny de Hek 0:59
Is there anything that you’d wish that would come back into Fashion?

Richard Andrew 1:04
Geez. In five minutes time, I’ll think of a perfect answer for this. Can’t think of anything off the top of my head? My clothes maybe, definitely want to hear something I definitely wouldn’t want to come back into fashion and these are the clothes is to wear in the 70s.

Danny de Hek 1:29
Because when you ask this question, you think he I do remember the Starsky and Hutch, Jersey with the you put your hand in the front and it had a big pocket on the front and normally had a stripe going down the side?

Richard Andrew 1:39
Yeah,

Danny de Hek 1:40
Yeah, I don’t.

Richard Andrew 1:42
I don’t know. I don’t really pine? I don’t know. No, not sure.

Danny de Hek 1:50
Obviously, Fashion not a big thing for you. As you can tell, eleven questions to go. Okay, this one could be an easy one. Maybe not so easy to use at the moment. So what form of public transportation do you prefer? that’s given us five examples we’ve got Air, Boat, Train, Bus, Car. So something what would you rather jump on? Pretend your on a holiday.

Richard Andrew 2:16
Oh, well, you know, obviously depends. I mean, I do, I do. Like I do love flying, I have to say and it’s the part part of that’s the airport experience. And you’re probably similar, I’ll get to the airport five hours early. Because then I can block out a serious chunk of time and get some work done. And, and then I’m on a plane, I’ll be writing articles and offline, of course, and I find the whole flight thing quite productive. Which is kind of sad, because it’s that I rate my quality time on on productivities. But I tend to fly my eyes if I’m going between the EU and Australia, for example. But if I’m on holidays, well, I don’t know, I just find Yeah, I do. I do enjoy being productive. And I do like the whole airport experience. You know, there’s always nice people in

Danny de Hek 3:01
I used to relocate rental cars. And they used to fly me to a destination and then drive it back to Christchurch and I used to have this motto city any plane anywhere anytime, or put the put me on it, I can see you doing that as well. We say no luxury missing at the moment. So be interesting to see what happens when the borders begin. Yeah. All right. How are you? I know you work for yourself. So this may not be applicable. But you must have associates that you work with is how do you how do you think your coworkers see you?

Richard Andrew 3:30
Ah, well, let’s talk about a co director because I know of one business that I can interact with a guy in Sydney. How does Stewart see me? Uh, oh, it’s a pretty competent person in my own right. I’m not quite the eye doctor anticorrosive that he is. But we both laugh about that. And you know, I said, we only need one of us to be mad, mad keen, I doesn’t he crosses, but we have complementary skills. So we both we have mutual admiration for each other’s skill set. When we are together, he would see me as a fairly competent drinker, I guess. Yeah, yeah. All right. And other co my other co workers on my other business are really sort of outsource people. So I don’t see them that much. I don’t see him is a friendly chat, you know, relatives.

Danny de Hek 4:32
The other side of the equation is that a lot of people are trying to hear they want people to see them, not how they think they see them, which is quite well, I’m always

Richard Andrew 4:41
I’m always looking at to see if people are reading me the wrong way or if I’m coming across the wrong way. But yeah, I think they tend to make people laugh, but

Danny de Hek 4:52
Nine questions to go. If you could share a meal with any individual living audience. We can go they can try, we’ll bring them back. Who would they be? So it doesn’t have to be a person. It could be a group of person, but you’d be allowed to go out for dinner with anywhere in the world any period of time. What table would you like to sit in?

Richard Andrew 5:11
Is it only one guy pick one, I might sneak a couple in. While like, I think Jesus would be a really cool dude. And that’s, but

Danny de Hek 5:19
I like bread and wine.

Richard Andrew 5:21
No, I think I think he’d be a lot cooler dude. And what different ways depicted as someone is living I now can’t think of his name

Danny de Hek 5:34
Donald Trump Trump.

Richard Andrew 5:38
Oh, no, of course, of course. Keep pitching Keith Richards without a doubt. Probably Jesus. He He. Yeah, I really respect Richards. I think he’s a he’s a bit like a laughing Buddha these days. And I actually I met someone who met him who actually and and the stories you hear about him seem to be spot on. Like he’s extremely loves talking to anybody and very wise, you know, great musician. Yeah. So definitely good stuff. Definitely.

Danny de Hek 6:12
Yeah, let’s go again through the questions. If you could. Okay, this is sort of similar in a way, but if you could eat one, if you could only eat one meal for the rest of your life, what would it be? Yeah. Every day.

Richard Andrew 6:29
Wow, I’d have to be around and we’ll work with had some fruits and vegetables and movies and protein in there. Some sort of fish dish with salad and a bit of fruit on the side, maybe?

Danny de Hek 6:43
Maybe a pit, a pit that seems to eat jelly meat every day and when they get on. Alright, see you go. So we’re gonna be looking for nutrition. That’s good. Do you love or hate roller coasters?

Richard Andrew 6:59
No, I love actually, we’ve I’ve had two sets of three days at the booth at the Disney parks in Tokyo. One year ago, I met three years ago. And so my daughter the first time around wasn’t up for the roller coasters. And these are the roller coasters they are at this. I haven’t been on the super super thrill ride roller coasters, they these are more themed. I mean, they’re still they’re still let’s do really good. But what might be really good is the theming so that you have like big than a mountain. So it’s all decked out as an American pioneer kind of mining mountain and you’re going past you know, oh, you know guys make make pretend guys outside of their hats on a rocking chair. And and it’s all it’s all. It’s fantastic that the whole experience but the roller coaster aspect was awesome. So Elsie and I went on that ride of Hebrew times and and we worked out at the front of the roller coaster was way better than the back. And yeah, so yes, I do enjoy the role. Because,

Danny de Hek 8:02
Yeah, I love them as well. And when I went to China, Christmas time, I was in Canton, and I thought I would go to the hip. And I think they had about 15 or 20 people on it and go through water and true holes. And it was really freaky when I went on that one. And then after that, I thought I’d gotten the one that was a big one that 50 people sit on and it just wasn’t my goodness, that made me feel sick. And they also say that I couldn’t actually get on any other roller coaster for the rest of the day because it was just too but I just remember that feeling. It was just shocking. And you’re not gonna bounce on there. There’s today’s middle hard thing over here and you just think this doesn’t feel safe. You know?

Richard Andrew 8:42
What one I think humorous story when I was early 20s as a unique sharing house with a really good mate of mine and with Cisco their lead shows that’s where they had some rides and stuff and I knew this this one ride that was just the hell right? It was just horrific. And and also that is where I like to record rides. And I said to Phil, I look you know, I don’t know why I got into my that. And I was just like Shadow thoughts. In my head. I’m thinking I thought we’re gonna be rides. So I thought I’ve got to get him on this ride somehow so I just played it right down and, and, you know, and then it looks scary. It’s not really that bad. Okay, and and i’m not talking we’re talking about everything else but right. I couldn’t believe we had a tweet on the phone. I was completely bullshitting. And we finally got got in the character still hadn’t said anything. We shut the door students. I think we moved on one and I looked at it looked at him and I said, Phil, this is absolutely the worst right? Are you kidding me? No Mate.

Danny de Hek 9:51
Terrify, Terrify the living Jesus out of you even if you do like it

Richard Andrew 10:00
I drink from each other a lot. But

Danny de Hek 10:02
Yeah, that’s a meme on that one. All right, that’s good. It’s fun. Another one. What’s the most Oh, here we go. Interesting. What’s the most daring thing you’ve ever actually done?

Richard Andrew 10:14
Daring thing

Danny de Hek 10:15
People say skydriving. We take that one out of the equation if you like. Smash any cars?

Richard Andrew 10:23
Daring thing, probably, probably that ride.

Danny de Hek 10:30
What country was it in?

Richard Andrew 10:32
What country it’s in Australia. I can’t even remember what it was called, but but you would be. It had like eight arms and it had three styles of motion. So it was completely random, you’re spinning this way. And that way and up and down. So you’d be like, you’d be like.

Danny de Hek 10:50
Washing machine

Richard Andrew 10:51
Vertically going straight towards a crowd. And then you’d go on, you’re spitting out just ridiculous.

Danny de Hek 10:57
Have been offered to do buggy jumping but I’ve never taken it. I don’t have my eyes bulging, or the sockets in the retina in my eyes detaching and all that sort of stuff doesn’t appeal to me. And I could have done anything else.

Richard Andrew 11:12
I’m at the age now where, you know, I don’t need to do thrill seeking stuff.

Danny de Hek 11:21
But there’s a business question. Are you doing what you want to do right now?

Richard Andrew 11:26
Am I doing what a wonder? Yeah. Yes. Well, there’s nothing I want to do that I’m not doing. I don’t know. If I, you know, I think ultimately, we we want to find their life purpose and have that as part of the work. And I’m not convinced I’m fully there. But I do believe that the path that I’m on is taking me there. So yeah, I

Danny de Hek 11:48
Interesting question, though, isn’t it because if you’re theoretically a goal setter, you want to be here, so you never really quite there anyway. But you’ve got goals, and you know, you’re setting yourself up something new here?

Richard Andrew 11:59
Well, nada, I find it really difficult to set goals, which goals may seem very hard, right? You know, I’m going to have $30,000 per month, or whatever it is, you know, I’m gonna have this sort of business with this sort of number of employees. And to me, like I, when I’m sort of creating, like a visualisation about what I want, it’s much more about the state of mind or how I feel who I’m the type of people I’m working with the the outcomes that are happening, I can’t necessarily see exactly what it is. But I just find doors open up and things like oh, yeah, she said to me, 10 years ago, this is what I’m doing now. And back then if you’d said to me 10 years before that, I’d be doing this, like I wouldn’t ever, you know, I wouldn’t believe I do. And I enjoy that meandering so I’m more about the journey than the destination.

Danny de Hek 12:55
That’s cool. We would you like to eat clients from

Richard Andrew 12:59
Were I like to get my clients from clients that I still can’t haven’t found yet. Hmm, there’s this there’s a whole it’s a whole bucket of them. I got Richard, where are you? I don’t know.

What I like to get I just like to get them. And that’s really why that’s what I’m working on the moment with various email streams. And you know, I’m actually just, I’m just organising a work retreat, I’m going away for four days in a row. Not that far. From here, actually about half an hour, 40 minutes away. And I’m going to lock myself away. This is this is really good. new, a new camera that actually works with video. So I’ve got a set up and because I just find you know, I can record videos here, but it’s just, I get distracted. And and if I could just focus on and get a whole video done for courses and emails and whatever. And you know, you want to get one of these babies make

Danny de Hek 13:59
Show you this. Yeah, seen one of those we call it a Pocket Osmo. But when you tune it in 4k as well. So when I travelled like in India, they confiscate anyone’s cameras, and they didn’t know what this was. So I just walked around with it like that, and I was doing 4k videos. Yeah. Okay. It’s gonna put my choice if I show and tell about it. What’s your pips? Okay. He’s good. He, what is your life purpose?

Richard Andrew 14:34
What is my life purpose? That’s it

Danny de Hek 14:38
You’ve made it mate

Richard Andrew 14:43
What’s my Odyssey? Oh, well, that’s, I think one of the purposes is to find out what your life purpose is.

Danny de Hek 14:49
I just I think I’m asking people when they get out of bed in the morning is usually a good one.

Richard Andrew 14:56
I get out of bed because I’ve got, you know, tasks that I want to achieve. A jobless witness remark was purpose. I mean, I don’t know, it’s an intersection between using skills that I have my we know, and that I enjoy doing because I’m good at them and they seem to make sense and creating stuff that helps people in some way and also generates an income and gives me a sense of fulfilment, and because made a few positive accolades back, that’s very generous.

Danny de Hek 15:34
Educator like an educator?

Richard Andrew 15:37
Yeah, I definitely same as what I’ve been a teacher in my life, and I definitely educated whether I’m working with it or not. And that’s the thing that frustrates me, I guess, in the whole digital marketing spaces. Everyone’s meant to be educating but so much of it’s just bullshit, you know, and even people who have respect for, you know, Ai, they still do things that are just slimy and are just

Danny de Hek 16:01
Slimy

Richard Andrew 16:05
Anyway, Yeah, definitely. Okay.

Danny de Hek 16:07
Two more questions. The last is what’s the longest you’ve gone without sleeping? Why was it?

Richard Andrew 16:18
Probably two days. Why was it I think might have had to do with an all night party.

Danny de Hek 16:28
It’s when you’re at a party and you see the sun coming up. You didn’t sleep enough to wait another 12 hours? We’re getting the chance to?

Richard Andrew 16:37
Yeah, it’s pretty solid. When you go without sleep. Why did you lack of sleep is a bit of a mind. It’s a bit of a mind thing. Like I remember before, because I did have periods of time where I was not sleeping a bit. or pushing those boundaries. And then you go, it’s a bit of a bit of a mind over matter thing, you know, whereas I haven’t had my head asleep and you droning on all day?

Danny de Hek 17:03
How many do you need to have?

Richard Andrew 17:04
Well, more than I used to? Probably I can probably get by with its quality of sleep. Whenever cat likes to disturbi

Danny de Hek 17:19
20 hours a day? Yeah.

Richard Andrew 17:23
Probably, all right, I reckon if I have five hours of really good quality sleep, and then a few hours, just, you know, half sleep. I’m okay.

Danny de Hek 17:33
So when to bed about 2:15 am last night and them I laying in bed trying to sleep. I couldn’t turn TV on watched it for about 2:50 am suppose. And then got up at seven. And it’s like sometimes I feel a bit shocked today. Yeah, right. So sparking very well. And I think people notice me when I’m running my meetings, whether I’m sparking or not, or funny or witty or just brain dead.

I do I do have some ambient music, which can work if I’m, if I’m Yeah, sometimes I just can’t stop thinking or, or, you know, there’s the cats masters nofas or whatever. Oh, wait, they stick stick something on repeat for private talking. I just like it’s like 40 minutes worth. And then it stops. And that that can not because I actually focus on that rather than thinking about whatever.

Good thing. How many languages do you speak? There’s the last question.

Richard Andrew 18:25
English and Australian. And a tiny bit of a tiny bit of Indonesian, and a tiny bit of Japanese but not not enough to call me a language speaker.

Danny de Hek 18:38
Now one of the members of elite succeeded that everyone speaks two languages. And I mean, oh, yeah. And he said body language. I mean, I know that was quite close. I can say that. Because again, there’s no language for dyslexia tell you that now, you Richard Andrew tell us who you are and what you do.

Richard Andrew 18:57
Who am I? Well, that’s probably for others to say. I am an Australian.

Danny de Hek 19:04
Sorry.

Richard Andrew 19:04
I can speak Australian if you want me to, but I’d have to swear every third word. So did not do that.

Danny de Hek 19:10
Don’t you just do that, that’s waving.

Richard Andrew 19:14
I grew up on 38 acres of mixed fruit orchard in country, South Australia on the Murray River. And so I’m not an East Coast at therefore don’t have the Australian Twain and the spirit video 20 odd years in Sydney. I got into I was a teacher got into teaching and then got into professional development of teachers. So running courses for teachers, manager that in between the teaching career I had a lot of kind of evidence six years on the same thing. So I did six years and he had a year off. I ended up at a room working in in the centre of Australia. in hospitality. I was doing bar work I went I went up and down and I was back in Adelaide during the hospitality In relief teaching and tutoring and, and so I was quite nomadic and went overseas to the Saturn station, you know, backpacking thing. I kept coming back to teaching, I did a lot of casual teaching and three different states around Australia. And so I’ve got a pretty good taste of it. And, yeah, I was more interested in the craft of teaching rather than the actual teaching and ended up doing a lot of messaging. So I’ve got, you know, don’t get me started on my views on how message messaging is better taught. But so then I got into in 2007, I started running courses for teachers. And then 2009, we started creating online courses. And that was under another, another company’s umbrella. Yep. And then, in 2015, I went out on my own because my courses was had a global reach. And I wanted, I just didn’t want the restrictions. And meanwhile, with old old, also started up a thing called pity for maths, which was also a professional development outfit for math teachers in New South Wales, my partner, Stuart. So there’s two things, two of those things running side by side there. And in between, I was doing some part time work in a school. And so I’ve been mostly in education, but more recently, because once you once you go out on your own as anything like that, you are suddenly a marketer, which you know, is, you know, you just want to sell these things. So I had like, five, four years struggling trying to work out the whole digital marketing space, and never doing it is really tough doing that on your own. And then last year, I sort of got into the affiliate marketing game and had a look at that and learn a whole lot of sort of learnt the way some of this digital marketing stuff should work. And that’s been useful for my actual business in a way that I didn’t expect. And, yeah, so I’m in the process now of, I really like the idea of creating digital assets, because I’ve created like, probably 20, fully fledged, mega kind of online courses for teachers. And a lot 13 for other people, other other sort of collaborators. So

Danny de Hek 22:15
I reckon it’s where it’s at, at the moment, it’s digital assets, is really were it’s at there’s lots of things. Exactly. You know, and it’s passive income, as well.

Richard Andrew 22:23
Yeah, I enjoy creating them and then putting them together and working out how to market them and have upsells and all that all that sort of stuff, which I’ve never done before. So that’s sort of what I’m dabbling with. And one of the things I’m on an LED from, I’m actually working with genuine generating, guided, guided manifestation meditations, which is kind of cool. I know you know about that, but because I’ve sort of been doing that myself for years. And, and, and how it happened was I, I was, when you’re in the online space, and you’re doing the entrepreneur thing is you sign up to different people. And so you’re in their email threads, and you’re seeing what other people are doing. And this guy was due respect, he definitely knows really about helping people earn more money in their work, and is much less shady than me so much less show to the guys coming on. Anyway, he was he was doing some money manifestations at the end of the zoom calls, and then just pulling them out, like boom, and bust. Money, the zoom, the Zune quality of audio is that this one’s okay. But normally, it’s it’s really rough. It’s not music or anything, and, and he’s selling these things. And I, I was wanting to use them. But I couldn’t, I couldn’t use it. So I actually put music to it. And I thought, you know, it’d be better if I just did my own voice. Because I want to listen to this. And it was easier for me to listen because I can’t listen to it, I meditation if the if the audio is crap. It’s amazing what people put up with if if the guys is deemed as a worthy, you know, word. And I’m thinking and so I did a couple days for myself, I thought Actually, these are pretty good. You know, I set up a tight a beta tester site. I’ve generated some got really good feedback. So look at it, you know, who knows how it’s gonna go, but but I made stuff on other stuff works. So that’s a classic example of a digital asset and putting it to good you.

Danny de Hek 24:33
You had a personal story with that as well. Because used to be a revered standard as it right. And you overcome that by meditating in what way you see it. But something that you said your brother does, and you don’t now that you’ve convinced yourself that you don’t have to start a tech, it’s a different mindset. I’ve gotten the story, just a while what

Richard Andrew 24:56
I’ll do is switch version so I’m on finished high school. And I’m a kid who’s quite popular could have been head prefect but would never go there. Because there’s no way I was going to make a speech because the classic example had 12 kids who knew really well in my geography class at U 12. And we had to give this little five minute talk about something I could barely get a word at, I can say, because I, my brother was always a stutter. And I learned to stutter when I was a stutter. But I turned it into a hesitancy, hesitancy. So and one on one, I wasn’t much different to now. But if you get pressure on me, I would know the words that I was gonna stutter on. So I’ll just stop until I can get him out. So have you put a lot of pressure on me on that talk? I think I can say

Danny de Hek 25:42
Become an observer. Yeah, exactly.

Richard Andrew 25:45
And so so I decided to go into teaching. Like, what was I thinking? It’s insane. And of course, pressure really came on after six months, because I’m about to head into practice in situations and I’ve got. So I end up in a psychologist chair who did some diagnosis, and then top told me, Richard, this will sound like a bit of a con job. But the only reason you have a problem is because you think you have a problem. And like, I’d never thought I’d even thought about like, why I had a problem or, you know, I just had a problem. And then, and I said, Well, that’s all fine. It’s amazing. But what? And she said, Well, I’m gonna she called it hypnosis, but really, it’s just creative visualisation. And so we we did some sessions with her. And then she taught me a technique, which is guided meditation, but I was just in my mind, and it was simply relaxing. I’ve never done this before. Is this like a country boy, you know, really, in the line played sport, and I’m now meditating, right 1977 or something.

But she said she was she was working with three or four footballers in Victoria, this is in Adelaide. And she was helping them heal get healed just with this over the phone is awful stuff. So anyway, but what I was doing was, was visualising the next semi stressful situation, and seeing myself do fairly well on it, but better than normal. Right? Yeah, the next one, the next one. And, and I was doing, I was doing this for a while, and it wasn’t working. I went back to and said, Look, it’s not working. And she says, what was the biggest con have ever heard, but if you don’t believe it will work. It can’t. And that was my next man on set. From then on. I just got better and better. And, and I was I was fine. so and so and so. That’s the other thing. I thought, well, I know this stuff works. And so anyway, so um,

Danny de Hek 27:47
Scientifically, they reckon that we use 1% of our brain some use less. But if you unleash some of the potential of the brain, it’s harnessed, you know, potentially boosted up mean, of course.

Richard Andrew 28:02
All the sorry, train of thought gone, over to you.

Danny de Hek 28:13
Yeah. So good. We’ll leave it there. Anyway. Now, if people were to find you, I know you’re a member of elite sex. So that helps. But do you have a website address? Because I was trying to find stuff in a bit either day. And it’s pretty hard to find venue learning stuff. Well, your email address and the domain didn’t work. Can we find you?

Richard Andrew 28:31
Well, yeah, so learnimplementshare.com is the education base. But the people like I’ve joined elite six, not thinking that anyone’s going to jump on my courses because it’s not ELITE : SIX isn’t really is not for education, it just so I’m sort of building up slowly, the personal brand thing which will make the Richard Andrew now will end up being a website. I haven’t built it yet. But I haven’t got enough assets yet. So that’ll be like, the meditation stuff will be on a link to the meditation site will be on there. But there’s other things like, I want to have a course on. People like me how to put this stuff together, how to build these assets, and how to put them on web and in a way that really makes words make sense in a slick and then also, just other other stuff that that can help people earn money. So once that’s done, I’ll build that website.

Danny de Hek 29:27
The personal brand thing is where we’re going. My partner, Helen, obviously, is photographer, spend about why it’s been quite a few years, but I’ve actually got pretty much where I want it to be about 80%. And I think that’s where everyone needs to be in the small to medium size.

Richard Andrew 29:43
At the last ELITE : SIX meeting, you talked about that. And I know you’ve talked about that before, but the penny sort of dropped and I thought, gee, I totally get what you’re doing. And I’ll be there probably in an year’s time. It’s just it’s not. It’s not worth me building the site yet because there’s really nothing much to put on it, but I just want to focus on his assets.

Danny de Hek 30:04
Digital assets, everything you can sell. Like I’m building up a database of podcasts at the moment. And I’ve actually invited a couple of book authors along. And Michael Scott was last name, but he bought the book Flip It. And it’s been brilliant he and he’s just come back and said love to him. And he’s telling me, he’s in England. And he said, I just got into locked in at the moment. It says, Don’t tell me you don’t have enough time. So, but because my brain is in place, I can now ask these people to come on, and they do it. Because I want to be part of it. I think it’s really, really cool. I will leave it there but so much for your time today for fun, and you will see some notes in the bottle and this will be scribed onto their website if you want to contact Richard, by all means, ask me if you can’t find them and I’ll guide you in the right place. So thanks coming along mate.

Richard Andrew 30:56
Alright, see ya.

Danny de Hek 30:58
That’s cool.

Transcribed by Otter

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